I have been in deep discussion on this topic for a long time with a great brother in Christ who thinks that There is Predestination in God's eyes & I do NOT - Both of us are referring to Romans Ch 9. My Personal comments will be in Colour so to distinguish it from the original text.
Before I go on - I will say this: This teaching is based on the back drop of Exodus 33 & 32 where Moses First asked God to Take away israelites sin or Blot him out {Ex 32: 30 - 33 & then says those great words in Ex 33:19} - I will comment on this at the end of my citations.
What I will try to do in the first section - is to USE JEWISH Teachings & how Jews see this subject - Most of the information is derived from JNT That is Jewish New Testament Commentary ISBN # 965-359-011-1 From Jewish New Testament Publications Inc. - Fifth Edition 1996.
In NIV Text under John 3: 15 - 21 we read this: {Emphasis is mine in all text below unless otherwise stated}
"That EVERYONE who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one & only Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM shall NOT Perish but HAVE Eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but TO SAVE the world through hi. 18 WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM IS NOT Condemned, but whoever DOES NOT Believe stands condemned already because he has NOT believed in the name of God's one & only Son. 19 this is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but MEN LOVED Darkness Instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will NOT COME into the the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But WHOEVER Lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
As you can see from the above scripture - THERE IS NO Predestination of any kind - JUST Belief in Jesus Christ as our Lord God the saviour & anyone who DOES BELIEVE IN HIM AS His / Hers Saviour Lord God, then that person will be saved.
Great theologian Kenneth S. Wuest tells us this on Chapter 9: In his Study series "Word Studies in the Greek New Testament: Volume 1 page 151: Citing Vincent who quotes Luther on anticipation of doctrine in election:
"Who hath not known passion, cross, & travail of death, CANNOT treat of "foreknowledge {election of grace} without injury & inward enmity toward God. Wherefore take heed that thou drink not wine while thou art yet a suckling child. Each doctrine hath its own reason and measure and age."
Beautifully said - So if you are still a child suckling on milk - how are you to understand ELECTION OF GRACE {foreknowledge} Unless you are led by the spirit who helps you mature as a young child matures through its development stages into adulthood?
I will cite more from Wuest at the end of JNT text - so pleas read on.
Please Note that ** ALL IS FORESEEN ** & not just few things or none!!
In Talmud we read where 'Abaye & Raba interpret the verse "You are Sons of Adonai your God.." Deut 14: 1 in this way: 'When you have been like sons you are called son, if you do not behave like sons you are not called sons.' This is Rabbi Y'hudah's opinion. Rabbi Mw'ir said: 'In both cases you are called sons, for it is said, "They are stupid sons" {Jer 4: 22} Also it is said, "they are sons in whom there is no faith" {Deut 32: 20}; also,".. a seed of evildoers, sons who deal corruptly" {Isaiah 1: 4}; and also, "It shall come to pass that in the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' it will be said to them, 'YOU A RE SONS OF THE LIVING GOD.'" {Hosea 2:1 [1:10]}'
Why quote so many verses to make the point? SO that if you say, 'They may indeed be called sons when they are stupid but not when they lack faith.' And if you say, 'They may be sons and lack faith, but if they serve idols they are not called sons,' THERE IS THE VERSE, '.. a seed of evildoers, sons who deal corruptly. 'And if you say, 'They may be called sons when they deal corruptly, but not good sons, then listen;' It shall come to pass that in the place where it was said to them. "You are my people," it will be said to them, "You are sons of the Living God.''" {Kiddushin 36a}
As you can see even Evil ones are Called Sons of God! So Lets go on & see what JNT Commentary says about Romans 9: 10 onwards _ from page 390 in JNT Commentary _ {Emphasis is mine}
"10-13 The case of Rivkah {Rebekah} is even more to the point in demonstrating God's absolute sovereignty in determining independently of anything human beings do. For Both Ya'kov {Jacob & Esau} & Esav were here children, whereas the fact that Yishma'el's {Ishmael} mother was Hagar & Yitzchak {Isaac} was Sarah might lead one to conclude that Sarah's greater worthiness had earned Yitzchak the promises. Nor can one look for a difference in deservedness on the father's side, for both were conceived in a single act by Yitzchak; the Greek word "koite" does not mean merely that both had the same father which is, of course, true, but that both were conceived in the same act of the sexual intercourse." {emphasis as per original text}
"Also, in the case of Yishma'el and Yitzchak, you might say that Yishma'el, who was fourteen years old when Yitzchak was born, had already proved himself unfit. But in the present instance the decision was made by God before they had been born, before they had dome anything at all, either good or bad. Sha'ul {Paul} makes as explicit as possible God's motivation: so that God's plan might remain a matter of HIS SOVEREIGN CHOICE, not dependent on what they {children} did but on God, who does the calling.
God's decisions contradiction the normal rules of that society, was that the older will serve the younger, which is consistent with the pronouncement made centuries later. Ya'kov I Loved but Esav I hated {in which "hated" is a relative term meaning "loved less"; {see Luke 14: 26&N}. This was quoted from Malachi 1: 2- 3, and as the CONTEXT there shows, it NOT only looks back to those two brothers, but forward to their posterity as well; for God punished Edomites, who were descended in part from Esav {Deuteronomy 2: 4; Obadiah 1,6}, and blessed Israel, Ya'kov's seed.
Before I go on - I will cite what JNT Commentary says on Luke 14: 26 that way you should be able to get bigger picture from Jewish perspective. This is found on page 129 of JNT:
"26 - 33 If anyone.. does not hate his father [and] ..mother.. he cannot be my talmid. One hears v 26 selectively misquoted in exactly this way, and on this basis a case is made that Yashua is a cruel madman. But the KEY th this warning is, of course, the phrase "AND HIS OWN LIFE BESIDES" {emphasis mine} . The THEME of these verses is NOT alienation from one's own family but the COST OF DISCIPLESHIP over the Loyalty to God and His Messiah {see Matthew 16: 24& notes - I will NOT be citing those notes here}. He MUST RENOUNCE all that he has {v 33} acknowledging that if God is to be primary in his life, possessions and even social relationships, in and of themselves, must be secondary. being Messianic is more than merely acknowledging facts about Yeshua {Jesus}. AS Mishna says it in Avot 2: 1 "Be thinking about the loss of a mitzvah against its reward, and the reward of a transgression against its loss."
14 That a loving God can hate {v 13; Psalm 139: 21 - 22} and that his hatred can seem arbitrary might tempt one to say, "It is unjust for God to do this." Sha'ul, concentrating on both God's sovereignty and His justice, replies. "Heaven Forbid!" {on this phrase see Ch 3: 4N.} He is the Rock, His work is perfect; for all his ways are justice; a God of truth and without iniquity, just & right is he." {Deuteronomy 32: 4}
Note on Romans 3:4 say this: "Heaven Forbid! Greek 'me genoito,' which some modern versions render literally, "Let it not be!" But this loses the force of the idiom, used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew expression, "Chaliah!" - {Genesis 44: 7: 17; Joshua 22: 29, 24: 16}, which means "Profanation!" "A curse on it!' "Away with it!" "Chalilah" may be Hebrew's most intense wish for negative; therefore KJV's "God Forbid!" conveys the sense well. I substitute Heaven for God in this expression because neither the Hebrew nor Greek refers to God at all; and Jewish sensibly tends to remove words like "God" or "Lord" from curse, perhaps to avoid breaking the Third Commandment by taking God's name in vain {Exodus 20: 7 - compare Matthew 5: 33 - 37, }. The phrases occurs 15 times in NT, 10 of them in Romans {here, 3: 6, 31; 6: 2, 15; 7: 7, 13; 9:14; 11: 1,11 - the other passages are Luke 20:16; 1 Cor 6: 15; Gal. 2: 17, 3: 21, 6: 14}.
Continuing on from verse 15 - 16 In quoting Exodus 33: 19 - Sha'ul brings into focus God's Mercy along with his sovereignty and justice. Though God is within his rights to have whom he will, so that standing with God doesn't depend on human desires or efforts, God nevertheless does have mercy and does show pity.
Non- Messianic Judaism understands God's attribute of mercy as even greater than his attribute of justice. ALthough this seems a very beautiful idea, it can not lead to the false hope that God in his mercy will somehow overlook the just punishment for sins. It is easy to see why such hope is sought = people who do not have Yeshua {Jesus Christ} to satisfy God's demand for justice by being the kapparah {atonement} for their sins, know that they need God's Mercy desperately. The wish, then, is father to the thought that God is more merciful that judgmental.
Messianic Judaism does not have to elevate mercy over justice, because Yeshua the Messiah combines in himself God's perfect justice with his prefect mercy and demonstration how they dovetail and coincide {see 3: 25 - 26& NN I am not citing those notes here - but f anyone want's to read them just a sk me privately}. This is why Sha'ul can quote Exodus 33: 19 in answer to a question about God's justice, thereby placing God's mercy alongside his justice and not above it.
17 - 18 Exodus 4: 21, 7: 3, 9: 12 and especially 14: 4 speak of God's hardening Pharaohs heart. Sha'ul sees history repeating itself. Israel's rejection of Yeshua, like Pharaoh's rejection of Moshe {Moses}, Provides the circumstances for God to demonstrate his power thorough the act of deliverance from "Egypt" and " bondage" of sin and death. Further, knowledge of this deliverance continues to be publicized: just as the Exodus became known through the Tanakh [OT] and the annual reading of the Haggadah {Passover home liturgy used for a Sedar- [order [of service for the Passover eve meal]] } at Pesch, so the Messiah's atoning death and resurrection are being made known through evangelism {and now, after Sha'ul's day, through the New Testament}. All this is a direct result of Israel's apostasy {a point reiterated at 11: 11 - 12, 15, 19, 25, 30 - 32} - for Israel's self - will, like Pharaoh's, { I will cover him soon :-)) }serves God's merciful ends.
19 - 21 "Hardens" v 18 is a hard word which easily provokes one to question the moral justice of the universe. "If God makes me hard, why does he blame me for being hard?" Right!! Sha'ul offers little comfort as in his Jewish manner, he answers this question with a question. "WHO ARE YOU, A MERE HUMAN BEING, TO TALK TO GOD?" {emphasis mine} Lest one think Sha'ul is being arrogant, he lets God Himself be the one to whom objection must be made by quoting Isaiah in v20 and using the image of the potter and the clay from Jeremiah 18: 6 in v 21. Traditional Judaism takes the same viewpoint, as can be seen in this quotation from the weekday morning prayer in the Siddur {Prayer book}: "Who is there among all the works of your hands, among those above or among those below, who could say to you, [God,] "What are you doing?"
However, against Sha'ul's refusal to budge on the matter of God's sovereign right to make from given lump of clay this for honourable use and one for dishonourable must be placed his insistence that "Everyone who call on the name of the ADONAI WILL BE SAVED" {10: 13} {emphasis mine}.
Similarly, Rabbi Akiva taught, ALL IS FORESEEN AND FREE WILL IS GIVEN {Avot 3: 15.}
Sha'ul does not let go of either side of the apparent paradox of predestination verses freedom of choice {see also Philippians 2: 12 - 13 & N}. Rather, he is ACTION Orientated, steering us away from idle and destructive questioning of God's governance, toward the practical solution, which is coming humbly to God through Yeshua the Messiah {Jesus Christ} -- This path is closed to NO ONE. Rashi {1040 - 1105} Notes that Pharaoh WAS GIVEN FIVE {5} Chances to Repent {in connection with the first five {5} plagues} but Hardened his OWN Heart, and ONLY AFTER that did God confirm Pharaoh's decision by hardening Pharaoh's heart {commentary on Exodus 7: 3}. God does NOT harden the heart of anyone but a confirmed rebel {John 12: 39&N} --- HE WANTS ALL TO TURN FROM SIN TO HIM {2:4, 2 Keffa }Peter} 3:9}.
As you all can see - It was Pharaoh's OWN Rejection of God & NOT God's Hardening his {Pharaoh's} heart that Caused his fall - Same applies to us all today - if we by our own choice TURN Away from God - Then God will grant us that wish even though He does not agree with it. BUT He wt no time will FORCE anyone to come to Him unless it is of persons own choice to do so.
Note on Philippians 13 -page 598} tells us this: " We come to the New Testament's most forthright & succinct statement of the paradox of human free will versus God's FOREKNOWLEDGE & or predestination. God is the one working among you {plural} both the willing & the working for what pleases him. It would be denial of God's own work not to do the work that pleases him -{Ephesians 2: 8-10&N} and we know from vv 3-4 that what pleases him is BELIEVERS LOOKING OUT FOR EACH OTHER'S INTERESTS. {emphasis mine}.
The KJV renders the first phrase ," It is God who worketh in you." - Suggesting that he is working inside each person, enabling each individual to will and do what pleases God. this interpretation too is legitimate.
The paradox of human choice is clearly seen in the Tanakh when Lamentations 5: 21 {"Turn us, Adoni, to you; and we will turn."} is set alongside Zechariah 1: 3 {"Turn to me, 'says Adoni of Heaven's Armies, and I will turn to you,'}- Then compare Rabbi Akiva expression again - "All IS FORESEEN, Yet Free Will * IS * Given" [Avot 3: 15] . In this verse we see that God does NOT Interfere with free will, but HELPS WHOSE WHO Already seek to do his will to do it better."
Lets see what JNT Commentary says on the Note in John 12: 39 - Yes, I am going to great lengths to show you from Messianic Jews point of view What this subject is all about. We start on page 193 & finish on 194.
39 - "They could not believe. God offers everyone the opportunity to "believe" or "trust" him. Greek pistis and the equivalent Hebrew, emunah, may be translated by either word - {See Acts 3: 16N or by both {Gal 2: 16 c&N. }But if THEY Reject Him, he may eventually make belief impossible: He hardens hearts {Romans 9: 18}. In this case God Blinded them {vv 40 - 41} just as He hardened Pharaoh's heart {Exodus 9: 12, 11: 10} AFTER PHARAOH HARDENED HIS OWN HEART {Exodus 8: 32}, so that it became impossible for Pharaoh to trust God. Even when he asked Moses for a blessing {Exodus 12 : 32}, it was but a memory aberration from his self - determined and God - Confirmed hardness. Perhaps his pain over the loss of the firstborn son of Egypt, or his fear that Moses would inflict worse punishment filled him briefly with sorrow. But it was not the godly kind of sorrow that leads to repentance {2 Cor. 7: 10} for within a day he sent the whole Egypt army to bring Moses and the people back."
The author goes on to answer a very difficult question that is placed to him:
"I dwell {the author & me the owner of this web page} on this because I am asked, "If Hitler repented on his deathbed, do you think God forgave him?" Some times I refuse to answer, on the ground that it's a trick question meant to test God & predicted on false assumption that the questioner has the right to judge whether God is fair. When I do answer, my answer, insofar as it pertains to the nature of God, is: Yes - conditional upon genuine repentance {and it is beyond my ability to imagine what that could possibly have meant in Hitler's case}.
However, in my view the question is probably vain. I think God had long before hardened Hitler's heart, since Hitler had hardened his own heart, so that he could not believe {see Romans 9: 17 - 21 & NN}. We know that God wants everyone to repent {Romans 2: 4, 2 Kefa {Peter} 3: 9}, but we also know that at death God confirms the unbeliever in the way he chose when alive { 3: 16 - 21, 5: 21 - 30; Rom 2: 5 - 8; Rev. 20: 13 - 15}. From this verse and from Exodus, we must acknowledge that sometimes God, who knows the end from the beginning, finalizes the unbeliever's before he dies.
May I add my 2c worth regards Hitler - I agree whole heartedly with the author above - I will also add another part that author leaves out - Since Hitler commits suicide by taking his own life {as far as I know that is what History teaches us on him} - Hitler has GONE OUTSIDE God's command of NOT executing such an act & hence, that simple act shows me that Hitler DID NOT REPENT from his heinous acts & was not accepted into God's heavenly home. That is my understanding of the scriptures. Let me know what you think. Lets face it, there were few OT prophets who did some things that are NOT in God's liking - Like David who killed many, ate forbidden food on Sabbath etc. yet After he REPENTED from his acts - God accepted him as His Prophet & Jesus came through David's genes.
22 - 24a: "These verses thus show us that God's mercy is MORE evident and more wonderful, more glorious, more "mercy - full," when THE BACKGROUND of Judgement is clearly perceived."
As you can see from JNT There is NO predestination as such, but there is FOREKNOWLEDGE by God who will do what even before they are born. From that foreknowledge God Chooses who will be in His Kingdom & who will not or as the JNT author states many times - NO MAN'S Judgement is involved but Gods omniscience, Veracity etc come into play.
God gives everyone equal chance to repent & come to him & anyone who calls on the name on the Lord will be saved other wise His words don't mean much.
Following section was received on Channel D discussion forum & I wish to share it with you also. I have left out the persons name, but am more than happy to include it if the person gives me permission to do so.
I will highlight the words that
NEED to be shown in more detail.
Some commentaries for those interested:
MHCC:
#6-13 The rejection of the Jews by the gospel
dispensation, did not break God's promise to the patriarchs. The promises
and threatenings shall be fulfilled. Grace does not run in the
blood; nor are saving benefits always found with outward church
privileges. Not only some of Abraham's seed were
chosen, and others not, but God therein wrought according to the
counsel of his own will. God foresaw
both Esau and Jacob as born in sin, by nature children of wrath even
as others. If left to themselves they would have continued in sin
through life; but for wise and holy reasons, not made known to us,
he purposed to change Jacob's heart, and to leave Esau to his perverseness.
This instance of Esau and Jacob throws light upon the Divine conduct
to the fallen race of man. The whole Scripture shows the difference between
the professed Christian and the real
believer. Outward privileges are bestowed on many
who are not the children of God. There is, however, full encouragement
to diligent use of the means of grace which God has appointed.
Please note that GOD FORESAW - in other words - God Knew in advance what both would do - even before they were born So God Chose the Good guy before he was even born so that NO one in Future could say - Oh Yeah, God chose the Good guy & not the other as he was rebellious etc. That is Foreknowledge of God & NOT God being arbitrary on human terms. This is show in the following statement:
Geneva:
9:11 (For the children being not
yet born, neither having done
any good or evil, that the {m} purpose of God according
to election might {8} stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
See what I mean? Before they were born & Before neither of them did anything good or evil - That way we MUST NOT say that God chose one over the other because one was good & other evil - as God did His Choosing before they were born. That is Foreknowledge, hey!
(m) God's decree which proceeds from only his good will, by which it pleases him to choose one, and refuse the other.
(8) Paul does not say, "might be made", but "being
made might remain". Therefore they are deceived who make foreseen
faith the cause of election,
and fore known infidelity the cause of reprobation.
9:16 {12} So then it is not of him that {q} willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(12) The conclusion of the answer: therefore God
is not unjust in choosing and saving from his free goodness, such
as it
pleases him: as
he also answered Moses when he prayed for all of the people. (q) By "will"
he means the thought and endeavour of heart,
and by "running", good works, to neither of which he gives the praise,
but only to the mercy of God.
Gill:
Ver. 11.
neither having done any good or evil; Jacob
and Esau were under all considerations upon an equal foot, were just
in the same situation and condition, when the one was loved and the other
hated; or in other words, when the one was chosen, and the other rejected;
they were neither of them as yet born, and had they been
born, their birth and parentage could have been no reason why one
was chose and the other not, because in both the same; nor had
the one performed a good action, or the other an evil one; so
that Jacob was not loved for his good works, nor Esau hated
for his evil ones; which confirms the truth of this doctrine, that
the objects of predestination, whether to life or death, are alike,
are in the same situation and condition: whether they are considered
in the corrupt mass, or as fallen, they are all equally such, so
that there could not be any reason in them, why some should be chosen
and others left; or whether in the pure mass, antecedent to the fall,
and without any consideration of it, which is clearly signified in
this passage, there could be nothing in the one, which was not
in the other, that could be the cause of such a difference made:
so that it follows, that works neither good nor evil are the causes
moving God to predestinate, whether to life or death; good works
are not the cause of election to eternal life, for not only, this
act of distinguishing grace, passed before any were done, but also
these are fruits, effects, and consequence of it, and so cannot be
the causes thereof; God does not proceed in order branches of salvation,
as in vocation, justification, &c. according to them, and therefore
it cannot be thought he should proceed upon this foot in the first
step to it; and which is ascribed to his free grace, in opposition
to works. Evil works are not the cause of the decree of rejection,
for this also being as early as the decree of election, as it must
unavoidably be, was before any evil works were done; sin
is not the cause of God's decree, but of the thing
decreed, eternal death; otherwise all the individuals in the world
being equally in sin,
must have been rejected: it remains then, that
not any works of men, good or bad, are the cause of predestination
in either of its branches, but the sovereign will and secret counsel
of God: that the purpose of God according to election might stand:
the decree of God, which is entirely free, and depends upon his
own will and choice, stands firm and immutable, and is not to
be disannulled by earth or hell, for it stands not on the precarious
foot of works:
When we take God's Purpose &
CONTEXT then we can see that Just because God knows IN ADVANCE - even before
we are Born - who will do what: i.e. who will choose His way & who
will not - That does NOT mean that God Predestines OUR Future - We of our
OWN FREE will can AT ANY TIME say Yes or No to God's call - SO
the Choice is YOURS! Who are you going to Choose - God or men made rules
& regulations??
not of works: did it, it would not stand sure, for nothing is more variable and uncertain, than the actions of men:
but of him that calleth: who is the unchangeable Jehovah; it stands upon his invariable will and immutable grace, whose "gifts and calling are without repentance", # Ro. 11:29.
Ver. 16. So then it is not of him that willeth,
&c.] This is not a consequence drawn by an adversary, showing
that if this be the case, it signifies nothing for men to will
or do, they may even sit still and do nothing, but depend on the mercy
of God; but this is a conclusion of the apostle's from the above
cited testimony, inferring from thence, that election, which is what
he is
discoursing of, is "not of him that willeth",
Please note - that the election is NOT of Him that willeth!!
nor of him that runneth: that is, is not owing to the will or works of men, to the desires, inclinations, and affections of their minds, or to the actions of their lives; these are not the motives, conditions, or causes of this act:
but of God that sheweth mercy; in a free sovereign
way and manner, which he is not obliged to by any thing the creature
wills or works; he is at full liberty, notwithstanding whatever they
will or do, to give his grace and mercy, when, where, and to whom
he pleases; and therefore to give it to
some, and deny it to others, can never be accounted an act of injustice,
since he is not bound to give it to any. Some make the
it to be the blessing of Isaac, which was not of the will of any
of the parties concerned; not of Isaac who willed it to Esau; nor
of Esau who willed it to himself, but had it not; nor of the will
of the persons who had their desires, not of the will of Rebecca,
who was desirous of it for her son Jacob, nor of the will of Jacob,
who desired it for himself, though he had it; nor of either of them
that ran, not of Esau, who made haste to hunt for, and prepare venison
for his father, nor of Jacob, who ran to the flock, for two kids
of the goats; but of God that showed mercy to
him, who, according to his sovereign will and pleasure,
had signified before to Rebecca, that "the elder should serve
the younger", {Please remember that this was
done before they were even born} # Gen. 25:23 Rom 9:12:
as the apostle had mentioned this so lately, it might still be in
his thoughts, and he may allude to it; but election being what he
is discoursing of in the context, that is the "it" here designed;
and what is true of that, is true of salvation in all its parts,
and therefore some understand it in the
large sense of salvation; though by others so qualified
and limited, as to spoil the glory of the text: some saying that
the sense is, it is not of him that willeth and runneth wrong, but
of the grace and mercy of God; but as no man would ever assert,
that salvation is of him that wills and runs wrong, so the apostle
had no occasion to deny it: others say, that it is not only of him that
wills, and only of him that runs, but also of God that shows mercy;
making man's will and works joint causes with the mercy of God in man's
salvation;
Please Note that it is BOTH CAUSES
- God's Mercy for being so Loving towards His creation & men's BY TURNING
to God & Doing God's will. God made it available by His Death on the
Cross & NOT IT IS UP TO INDIVIDUALS TO ACCEPT THAT FREE GIFT!!
Will you accept it?? Remember this: God will
NOT Force you - make a choice!!
and besides, as Austin {k} long ago observes, according
to this sense, the words might as well be read, it is not only of
God that shows mercy, but of him that willeth, and of him that
runneth, which no Christian would dare to say: the true sense is,
that as election, which is the leading step to
salvation, is not owing at all to the will of men, but to the good
pleasure and will
of God; and not at all to the works of men, that
being done before them, and they being the fruits and effects
of that, but to the free love, grace, and good will of God; so
salvation in all its parts and branches, as redemption, justification,
regeneration, vocation, and conversion, faith, repentance, hope,
love, &c. and eternal life, is not to be ascribed at all to the
will of men, nor at all to the works of men, but entirely and alone
to the love, grace, and mercy of God through Christ.
The Creator is Not determined by the creation any more then a potter is determined by a pot {9: 20 - 21} God's will achieves it's purpose despite of sin, adversity, & rebelliousness, even from elect Israel. - Question to ask from Israel's historical point is this: Could Israel believe or not? Of course they could, yet they chose to Rebel & do their own thing - as Hosea 4: 7 NIV text puts it like this: "The More the priests increased the more they sinned against me; they exchanged their Glory for something disgraceful." So, it was Peoples OWN CHOICES to rebel & NOT God forcing them to rebel - YES, God did for tell this long back - but in ALL cases they could have TURNED BACK to God but they refused.
Paul struggles ever so hard to Preserve the tension between predestination & peoples own choices - that fact is that this tension is the tension between Both ** A Divine Gift & Human Responses in Humans Faith In God & NOT man. **
As Job said in 42: 3 ""Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know"" - There are some things that we will never know UNTIL we meet our creator face to face - Until then we should allow Him to do His Thing & us TO HAVE FAITH IN HIM & HIS WAYS even though we do not understand the process fully - which drives us batty.
A Targum to this verse "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy etc.." Reads like this " I will spare whomever IS Worthy of being spared, & I will have mercy on whomever IS Worthy of being pitted."
The idea of worthiness is exactly what Paul DOES NOT want to suggest. God Chose Abraham before the Torah had been given or revealed to Moses - some 420 years earlier as a matter of fact: God chose Jacob over Esau before either had merited or forfeited he blessing; as Esau did for a meal: God revealed His Son to Paul while he was still a persecutor of the church; God justifies persons by Grace through faith while they {we} are still sinners {Rom 5: 8} & apart from works of the Law.
I saying that He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, God is NOT like a mad dictator, saying he can do what ever He pleases. It is rather a PROMISE that IN HIS BEHAVIOUR Towards humanity God WILL BE True To His CHARACTER OF LOVE & Justice. God's Character guarantees His action. As God said in Exodus 3: 14 "I am Who I am" - SO who are w e to tell Him otherwise? Taken out from J.R. Edward's commentary on Romans pages 236/7
Human effort is a necessary response of gratitude and commitment to God for His Grace in Jesus Christ, but it NEITHER Merits NOR Maintains Grace
Before I go on - some may still say that certain statements above show that predestination is still taught in the bible - This may result ONLY if you take those sections OUT & TRY TO MAKE THAT TEACHING. There is a GREAT NEED to read the entire passage BEFORE & AFTER those comments & then ALLOW GRACE OF GOD to work within you to help you see what God wants us to understand.
Alford explains the inclusion of Chapter 9 - 11 as follows: "The gospel being now established in its fulness and freeness, as the power of God unto salvation to EVERYONE THAT BELIEVETH, - {OK - To everyone that believes}!!
Paul goes on to say in Wuest's words: "Truth I speak in Christ. I am not lying, my conscience bearing joint - testimony with me in the Holy SPirit, that I have a consuming grief, a great one, and intense anguish in my heart without a let - up. For I could wish that I myself be accursed from Christ on behalf of my brethren, my kindred according to the flesh."
If Paul could do anything himself he would take up ALL the blame for his Jewish Brethren so that they would not be punished for their OWN CHOICE OF REJECTING Jesus as their Saviour & for Rejecting His teaching from Torah, BUT, that is not possible as EACH person will stand naked before Jesus & give His / Hers own account.
I am not about to re type ENTIRE Wuest commentary as there is too much to type - So I will recommend that if you are really Keen on finding out what he says about this subject that you go out & purchase the set as I have & learn & study it as it is so easily understood - It is published by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company Grand Rapids, Michigan 49502 ISBN # 0-8028-2280-0.
On page 160 Wuest tells us this: "Further, this was done by God of HIS SOVEREIGN FREEDOM; the decisive word was spoken to their mother WHILE THEY WERE AS YET UNBORN and had achieved NEITHER GOOD Nor EVIL."
That is that Good made His choice on Foreknowledge what one would do & what other would not. God kew in advance that Jacob would choose God's way & Esau would not. By doing this God did NOT rely on SEEING What one would do & then make His Choice on things seen - BUT INSTEAD - God chose the good one on HIS OWN Foreknowledge so that no one could say later that God only made His choice on what He saw twins do.
"Claims as of right therefore, made against God, are futile, whether they a re based on descent or works. There is NO WAY in which they can be established: and purpose to save men, and make them heirs of His kingdom - a purpose which is characterized as 'according to election," or involving choice - is NOT determined at all by consideration of such claims as the Jews put forward. In forming it, & carrying it out, God acts with perfect Freedom."
AS I said above - God's Free choice to tell us IN ADVANCE - before twins were even born - which one HE chose as the one who will do His will. Just a s God for told us many centuries in advance about Jesus' coming in the flesh - so He does here with the twins.
When Paul cites Malachi "Jacob I Loved but Esau I hated" - Further then this we can not go so not to misrepresent this, however, it is necessary to keep the apostle's purpose in view. He wishes to show that God's purpose has NOT broken down, though many children of Abraham have no part in its fulfilment in Christ.. etc -"
Paul shows us that there is NO works or birth right that determines who will be accepted & who will not be - but personal choices of Loving God form each persons heart determines that.
"The word 'hate' is 'miseo,' "to hate." However, when it is used in contrast to "love" here, it does NOT RETAIN original meaning of a literal hatred, but of a lesser degree of love. God cannot be said to hate anyone. THE IDEA IS. "The Jacob I Loved, but Esau, I loved less."
Wuest uses his translation which I like: "And not, only but also Rebecca, conceiving by one Isaac, our father. For not yet having been born, nor having practised good or evil, in order that the purpose of God dominated by an act of selecting out, may abide, not out of a source of works, but out of the source of the ONE who calls, it was said to her, The older shall serve the younger; even as it stands written, jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." {loved less that is}
On the words "mercy & compassion" West's tells us this : {9: 14 - 16} Vincent's note on the words "mercy" & "compassion" is as follows: "The former verb emphasizes the sense of human wretchedness in its active manifestation; the latter, the inward feeling expressing itself in sight & tears. Have mercy therefore contemplates, not merely the sentiment in itself, but the determination { the selection & appointment} of those who should be its objects. The words were spoken to Moses in connection with his prayer for general forgiveness of people, which was refused, & his request to behold God's glory, which was granted. With reference to the latter, God asserts that His gift of His own free grace, without any recognition of Moses' right to claim it on the ground of merit or service."
"The first "I will have mercy" is FUTURE Indicative, predicting a future event. the second occurrence of theses words is a PRESENT SUBJECTIVE. The relative pronoun is accompanied by "AN" a particle used with the subjective mode, used here with the relative pronoun to make the latter mean "WHOEVER," emphasizing indefiniteness. {The idea is NOT, "I will have mercy on whoever is DESIRE or Will to have mercy." IT IS, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON ANYONE, WHO EVER HE IS, THAT I WILL SHOW MERCY TO IN THE FUTURE." This emphasizes the absolute sovereignty of God in the disposition of His mercy.
In other words - God's choice & NOT what I DID & then ASKED FOR IT. Just accepting God's ways by faith & allowing HIm to LEAD us in His way & NOT doing it our way & then saying - "Hey God look I did this for you now GIVE ME My salvation - a la circumcised JEWS."
Wuest gives us his translation on this passage like this: "What shall we say then? there is no unrighteousness with God, is there? AWAY WITH THE THOUGHT. For to Moses He says: I will have mercy upon whoever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on who ever I Will compassion. therefore then, mercy is ot of the one who DESIRES now even Runs {Works}, but of the one who is merciful, God."
So beautifully said - If you believe in Jesus Christ as John 3: 16 says then God will Keep His word & WILL HAVE MERCY ON YOU - but if you Choose NOT to believe then God will grant you your wish also.
James R Edward's in his commentary on Romans 9 & predestination thing tells us this on page 233 - par 2 "Predestination is simply God's way of assuring that HIS GRACIOUS WILL in restoring creation to glory does not fall., i.e. that God's purpose in election might stand. In the present context Paul is Not discussing the eternal salvation of individuals, but God's purposeful choice in history from Abraham to Christ... The question is rather how God Operates in History rather then WHAT is the final fate of individuals or nations."
I [paragraph 3 we read on : In Jesus Christ God is for the world, electing believers in Grace and equipping them by Th spirit for His saving purpose in the world.. A s means of salvation, predestination has an inclusive "ripple - effect": like a stone thrown into {on to page 234} a pool, God intervenes at a point in history {e.g. the call of Abraham} and extends the effects of his intervention outward in ever - widening circles. "GOD OUR SAVIOUR ... WANTS ** ALL TO COME ** TO A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"{ 1 Tim 2: 3 -4}.
As i said above: Human effort is a necessary response of gratitude and commitment to God for His Grace in Jesus Christ, but it NEITHER Merits NOR Maintains Grace.
God is our gardener - who prunes us to come to Him - Just like some plants who do not want to grow so are w e humans. there are so many like JW's - Mormons - SDA's etc. who CHOSE to follow man made rules & regulations & NOT Our Saviour Our God Jesus Christ - SO God grants them their wish. Those who choose to ACCEPT God's FREE GIFT of Grace are pruned - small cut here - small tuck there Until we are Blossoming Rose which is accepted in t God's Heavenly kingdom.
Salvation os OFF God Through His Grace & nothing that we have done = but the second part to that is OUR ACCEPTANCE of that Free Gift - we either do or don't. Just because God's Knows who will do what before they are even born does not say that God is some monster who presses certain buttons & chooses few to go to Him & some not - He just sets the standards like a Owner of rental properties - Owner sets the rules & regulations of the Rental agreement & then CHOICES of who stays & goes are left to Individual tenants. Those who choose of their own free will to OBEY Those regulations will stay & those who reject those rules & try to set their own rules will be turfed out on their ear.
That simple - SO
choose if you want to be pruned in to a beautiful rose by God or be turfed
out or uprooted out from God's kingdom.
NOW back to the BACK DROP that I mentioned in the opening statements.
Paul In Romans 9: 15 - 16 is citing God's Word from Exodus 33: 19 which is the back drop to Moses prayer in Exodus 32: 30 - 31 - I will use NIV text from verse 30 just to give you a bigger picture:
30 "The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the Lord; PERHAPS I Can Make atonement for your sin." 31 So Moses went back to the Lord and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves god's of gold. 32 But now, PLEASE FORGIVE THEIR SIN - BUT IF NOT THEN BLOT ME OUT OF THE THE BOOK YOU HAVE WRITTEN."
Please note those words very carefully - Moses told people that they committed {personal choice to do wrong} a great sin by making a god of gold & then Moses told people that He will go to God & Try to make atonement on their behalf himself - verse 30 - then in verse 32 Moses makes his plea to God to Forgive peoples sin or blot him {Moses} out from His {God's} book.
This is the Back drop to the WHOLE TEACHING Here & by Paul - SO lets see what God's reply to Moses plea is in verse 33:
"The Lord replied to Moses, WHO EVER HAS SINNED AGAINST ME I WILL BLOT OF THE BOOK."
Please note that God does NOT fall for Moses plea to Blot Him out NOR does God fall for Moses Plea to forgive peoples sin on Moses request. - BUT, God says; {I will be blunt here :-)) } Hey, buster {Moses} who do you think you are? I will Deal with ALL people who sin against me my way & not your way - I will Blot anyone who has SINNED AGAINST ME On MY TERMS & NOT YOURS.
What I find interesting is that Moses gave God an ALTERNATIVE - by saying either forgive peoples sin against you OR BLOT ME out. God didn't like this & God told him {Moses} so. Moose's Love for his people was so great that he was prepared to give his life up for all of them - but God wanted EVERY JEW to be responsible for their own deeds & not their human leader.
Paul does the same thing in his teaching in Romans - When he says that ** IF ** he could get God to Forgive Israelites {Paul's people or Jewish brothers & sisters} Then He would ask God to do the same thing as he {Paul} Loves them that much, BUT, Paul knows from the Moses example that GOD WILL DEAL WITH ALL PEOPLE In His way & HE WILL BLOT OUT ** ANYONE ** WHO has sinned against Him in HIS WAY & NOT in any way that ** ANY HUMAN ** being demands of God.
God was wroth with Jews because of their disobedience towards Himself - therefore HE didn't want any righteous men to die for sinners. God wanted ALL Men to turn to Him in this case it was JEWS In Both cases.
In Isaiah 28:16 & Romans 10: 11 we read that "NO ONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM {GOD} WILL BE PT TO SHAME." Joel tells us in JOel 2: 32 this: " EVERYONE WHO CALLS UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Jews saw the Glory Of God & yet they rejected Him by trying to EARN their way in to God's favour - Yet it was given to them freely. - To US "Gentiles" It {SALVATION} has been given freely also so that we may see HIs Love, Mercy in the FACE OF JESUS CHRIST - ** IF WE CHOOSE TO **; it is a TERRIBLE THING ** IF ** WE REJECT HIM & CHOOSE THE WAYS OF THE EARTH / FLESH.
In Rev 3: 14 Jesus tells us that "HE STANDS AT THE DOOR & KNOCKS & WAITS FOR ANYONE TO OPEN IT SO THAT HE CAN COME IN & SUP WITH THAT PERSON"
** It is a great or awful responsibility of ANY Human being's will to REJECT or to refuse to open that door. CHOICE IS YOURS MY FRIENDS.
God LOVES US SO MUCH that HE was prepared to leave His heavenly place & be humiliated by HIs creation & be hanged on the Cross with 6 inch nails pierced through HIs wrists & feet so that ALL that we have to do IS ACCEPT HIS FREE GIFT OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH & WE WILL BE SAVED OR ASSURED OF OUR SPIRITUAL SALVATION.
I trust that the above info has helped you out just a little bit on the predestination debate.
I have started a page on Doctrine
of Original Sin BUT not yet finished - which will explain in
more detail some questions that I have received over the few months